I would never correct anyone in general conversation unless they asked me about a word or its usage. That has happened occasionally, but sometimes a person has corrected me. Usually I ignore it if I know I'm correct, but recently I explained that I wasn't wrong and gave some history of the expression she was challenging. Her response was, "You'll take that opinion over a friend with personal experience?" It was the most peculiar conversation around language I've had in decades. The answer, BTW, is yes. I'm fine with being corrected because I'm always ready to learn. I understand language changes, and English is changing a lot, it seems, but writers like me work at being correct in our word usage.
Truly bizarre. Was your friend an English teacher?
I'm fine being corrected in my non-native languages of French, German, Dutch. I welcome the chance to learn. But I speak English well not just because I come from an age when well-rounded English majors prized good writing and speaking but because my mother was a language maven.
My friend was not an English teacher, and her criticism made no sense. People are sensitive about their own language and want to be right. I get that, which is why I have dictionaries and grammars and language histories (also known as usage guides).
I have trouble with the "accent tonique". I'm a native French speaker and I tend to put it on the wrong syllable which cause gales of laughter in my house—when they understand what I'm talking about! Often, moving that emphasis point completely baffles people... I have to take a deep breath before saying "azalea" - I want to say azaLEa instead of aZAlea... very confusing to me!
French was my 2nd language and it started it 4th grade. I grew up a Francophile and when I got there, when people complimented my French, I would say, "la France est le pays de mon coeur." After three days in a French milieu, the imperfect returns, and after a week, le subjonctif. :-)
Ahah! For info, "le subjonctif" is about to give up the ghost, "le denier soupir"... it's already extinct in daily conversation. The Academie is in mourning :)
Mmmhhh... I'd say there are more elisions rather than less as people chop off words for the sake of speed. "je ne sais pas" becomes "ch'sais pas". Judging from listening to my nephew and niece. I haven't been in a Parisian cafe in a while...
No, I'm in Texas, lol. Verlan, for me, is slang where people reverse syllables, "l'envers" reversed as Verlan. The only people I know who spoke that were old-timey French gangsters.
That's a good way of getting around it. I have heard musicians correct people, but politely and starting with, "As a musician--" and that seems to soften the correction.
And I, as a French speaker, had to learn not to check a student enrollment sheet while assuming French surnames were pronounced in French. Boucher was Bow-cher. Yikes.
I prefer the OC to avoid possible confusion but also for the rhythm of my sentences. That being said, I'm not a Comma Bully and I certainly only suggest it to the writers I work with if it would make the sentence in question clearer.
To me, saying "I feel nauseated" would seem rather pompous - nauseous it is!
As for the hoi polloi, with or without the 'the' - I'm not even sure that it qualities as English English versus Americanish. It's a matter of taste, really, both acceptable. Language is a constantly morphing thing, but some misuses can be annoying.
Many style guides draw the distinction and when I read English books, fiction or nonfiction, I find "the" not used. Of course since the Brits are using so much more American English these days in their movies, maybe that's changing.
I have a goofy response to this: I have had three rescue dogs in my life, and they came with bad grammar or unfortunate names. My first dog, Grace, I got from a friend who died of AIDS in the 80s and her first pal taught her the command, "Go lie down," incorrect grammar for "Go lay down." But Grace would NOT go lay down when I tried to speak correctly, so everybody would correct me when I told my dog to go lie down, and I had to live with that for 12 years (yeah, I could have worked on it, but I kinda liked embarrassing people with this story).
The dog I have now was rescued at age 3 from a family of pet hoarders, 5 cats, 4 dogs, and 2 hamsters with "American Heroes from History" names. His name is Daniel Boone, also the former name of my local elementary school until they changed it to Mosaic to get rid of the racist namesake. I can't really change it but I do refer to him more often as "Daniel Boone National Forest" or "DBNF" or "DB" or "BOONE!" to stop his mischief. He does not stop the mischief.
Lay means "to place something down flat," while lie means "to be in a flat position on a surface." The key difference is that lay is transitive and requires an object to act upon, and lie is intransitive, describing something moving on its own or already in position. Webster's on line.
"Then there was an English friend who was seriously offended when I said “the hoi polloi” Did you tell them "the polloi" doesn't work in any context? : )
It irks me when doctors or nurses ask me to lay down. I did just once explain to a tech that I was a writer and language meant a lot to me and when I explained the difference between lay and lie in the present tense, he thanked me!
I would never correct anyone in general conversation unless they asked me about a word or its usage. That has happened occasionally, but sometimes a person has corrected me. Usually I ignore it if I know I'm correct, but recently I explained that I wasn't wrong and gave some history of the expression she was challenging. Her response was, "You'll take that opinion over a friend with personal experience?" It was the most peculiar conversation around language I've had in decades. The answer, BTW, is yes. I'm fine with being corrected because I'm always ready to learn. I understand language changes, and English is changing a lot, it seems, but writers like me work at being correct in our word usage.
Truly bizarre. Was your friend an English teacher?
I'm fine being corrected in my non-native languages of French, German, Dutch. I welcome the chance to learn. But I speak English well not just because I come from an age when well-rounded English majors prized good writing and speaking but because my mother was a language maven.
My friend was not an English teacher, and her criticism made no sense. People are sensitive about their own language and want to be right. I get that, which is why I have dictionaries and grammars and language histories (also known as usage guides).
I have trouble with the "accent tonique". I'm a native French speaker and I tend to put it on the wrong syllable which cause gales of laughter in my house—when they understand what I'm talking about! Often, moving that emphasis point completely baffles people... I have to take a deep breath before saying "azalea" - I want to say azaLEa instead of aZAlea... very confusing to me!
French was my 2nd language and it started it 4th grade. I grew up a Francophile and when I got there, when people complimented my French, I would say, "la France est le pays de mon coeur." After three days in a French milieu, the imperfect returns, and after a week, le subjonctif. :-)
Ahah! For info, "le subjonctif" is about to give up the ghost, "le denier soupir"... it's already extinct in daily conversation. The Academie is in mourning :)
Dommage, car moi, j'aime dire "Pas que je sache..." :-)
Dites-moi, si vous avez le temps, l'ellision disparaît-elle dans le discours ordinaire ?
Mmmhhh... I'd say there are more elisions rather than less as people chop off words for the sake of speed. "je ne sais pas" becomes "ch'sais pas". Judging from listening to my nephew and niece. I haven't been in a Parisian cafe in a while...
I think I meant something else. I'll have to note what I'm hearing/not hearing next time I watch French film.
I got used to "chais pas" years ago, so that's not what I was thinking about it. Hmmm....
You're in Montreal, no? Do they use Verlan there?
No, I'm in Texas, lol. Verlan, for me, is slang where people reverse syllables, "l'envers" reversed as Verlan. The only people I know who spoke that were old-timey French gangsters.
I never say, “That’s not my forte,” because inevitably someone will say, “Don’t you mean ‘for-TAY’?” I just say, “That’s not my strong suit.”
That's a good way of getting around it. I have heard musicians correct people, but politely and starting with, "As a musician--" and that seems to soften the correction.
As a French major, I had to learn all the correct English-language mispronunciations. Hors d’oeuvre. Chaise longue. Forte.
And I, as a French speaker, had to learn not to check a student enrollment sheet while assuming French surnames were pronounced in French. Boucher was Bow-cher. Yikes.
Yes, which resulted in a shouting match in my place of employment (a college on a Navy base). What about? The Oxford comma. It was a bad scene.
That could be a hilairous micro-story.
I prefer the OC to avoid possible confusion but also for the rhythm of my sentences. That being said, I'm not a Comma Bully and I certainly only suggest it to the writers I work with if it would make the sentence in question clearer.
My colleague was denying that the comma before and in a series was optional if the meaning of the sentence was clear.
And that was worth shouting about for your colleague?
Yes. He was an "I'm always right" kinda guy. I felt like such a fool for engaging when I should have done the "smile and nod" thing.
Good grief. Sorry you had to work with someone so rigid.
To me, saying "I feel nauseated" would seem rather pompous - nauseous it is!
As for the hoi polloi, with or without the 'the' - I'm not even sure that it qualities as English English versus Americanish. It's a matter of taste, really, both acceptable. Language is a constantly morphing thing, but some misuses can be annoying.
Many style guides draw the distinction and when I read English books, fiction or nonfiction, I find "the" not used. Of course since the Brits are using so much more American English these days in their movies, maybe that's changing.
I have a goofy response to this: I have had three rescue dogs in my life, and they came with bad grammar or unfortunate names. My first dog, Grace, I got from a friend who died of AIDS in the 80s and her first pal taught her the command, "Go lie down," incorrect grammar for "Go lay down." But Grace would NOT go lay down when I tried to speak correctly, so everybody would correct me when I told my dog to go lie down, and I had to live with that for 12 years (yeah, I could have worked on it, but I kinda liked embarrassing people with this story).
The dog I have now was rescued at age 3 from a family of pet hoarders, 5 cats, 4 dogs, and 2 hamsters with "American Heroes from History" names. His name is Daniel Boone, also the former name of my local elementary school until they changed it to Mosaic to get rid of the racist namesake. I can't really change it but I do refer to him more often as "Daniel Boone National Forest" or "DBNF" or "DB" or "BOONE!" to stop his mischief. He does not stop the mischief.
Lay means "to place something down flat," while lie means "to be in a flat position on a surface." The key difference is that lay is transitive and requires an object to act upon, and lie is intransitive, describing something moving on its own or already in position. Webster's on line.
"Then there was an English friend who was seriously offended when I said “the hoi polloi” Did you tell them "the polloi" doesn't work in any context? : )
Meaning "the hoi polloi" vs. "hoi polloi."
yes how would it sound if you said "Hoi polloi will decide this election"? Not too good : )
It irks me when doctors or nurses ask me to lay down. I did just once explain to a tech that I was a writer and language meant a lot to me and when I explained the difference between lay and lie in the present tense, he thanked me!